Community Chat with Scarlette Kerr (Part 2)

In this episode, Scarlette discusses the challenges of an audiation-based piano studio, and what she does to be one step ahead of parents questions and concerns. She also talks about the magic moments and how beautifully Music Moves for Piano complements her approach to technique.

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Introduction to Audiation-based Piano Instruction and Music Moves for Piano

Ready to learn more about audiation-based piano instruction and Music Moves for Piano? Visit Music Learning Academy for online courses, webinars, and resources.

Want to dive into audiation-based piano instruction? Check out Music Moves for Piano by Marilyn Lowe.

Transcript

Hannah: 1:19

Welcome to Keys to Music Learning. I'm Hannah Mayo of Mayo Piano.

Krista: 1:24

And I'm Krista Jadro of Music Learning Academy.

Hannah: 1:27

Join us as we discuss common goals and challenges in the piano studio and offer research-based ideas and solutions to guide every one of your students to reach their full musical potential with audiation.

Krista: 1:40

We are thrilled to welcome back Scarlette Kerr, piano teacher and Music Learning Academy team member from North Carolina. Last episode, Scarlette, you talked about your auditaion journey. And today we'd love to talk more about Music Moves for Piano and also your studies with Dr. Barbara Lister-Sink. So let's start with Music Moves for Piano. How did you introduce it to your piano studio? I guess, did you go all in at one time? Or was it more of a slow incorporation?

Scarlette Kerr: 2:12

Oh, yeah, well, first of all, thanks for having me back. So I was very lucky at that stage in my life. Because I was in grad school, I was kind of like a fresh slate studio-wise. I didn't take any students with me from Virginia where I was living prior to coming to North Carolina. I had maybe like a couple students I was teaching in North Carolina. So essentially, I could start from the ground up and not have to convince anybody really to switch over. I had one student who's still with me today who started with me when I was in grad school. And he was nine or ten when he came to me, and he had taken piano lessons prior to me. And when he came, he had some experience with reading because he had it was the method book, traditional method. However, he didn't really play it was on the page. He kind of just played how he heard it. And he didn't have a sense of pulse. And his coordination was kind of wonky. I felt like all over the place. So after a couple of months, and this is around the same time that I discovered Music Moves. So I was like thinking, okay, how can I start this with him? So essentially, in January 2019, I was like, Alright, we're gonna try something different. And his mom was like, okay, and he was like, okay, and we started singing away from the piano, and started doing like, moving to the macrobeat, even the microbeat, and this poor child, he could not move to a macrobeat and coordinate microbeats at the same time, it was, it was amazing. And I was like, okay, so we just have to move around the room more, and I sang like, folk songs with him. And of course, this is like baby MLT Scarlette, who is kind of babbling her way through MLT, like probably not doing everything correctly, but like, try and incorporate as much as I could, I wasn't using the books correctly. Of course, that was still in that like, oh we have to do what's on the page. But we did a lot of stuff by ear and I over explained a lot of stuff. But he didn't need to know. But over the course of many years, he eventually got it. And he can coordinate beautifully now with mcarobeats and microbeats.

Unknown: 4:24

And even his like, motor skill development has also kind of come into its own as he's kind of hit puberty. And he's involved in choir and and band. And he, because he's my guinea pig student, I think he's the most like, all over the place student as well as Music Moves. And so we've stepped away from Music Moves, now we're bringing it back to Music Moves, because he's brought in music he's wanting to learn, but we still kind of approach it in an MLT way but yeah, so back with him. He was like my first one, and everybody else after him, it just kind of like, "we're doing this," and everybody was like, okay. In grad school, I was gonna be like, two students tops thrpough the whole thing which gave me time to learn more about it and kind of process it before I did it with students. And then when I opened my studio after I finished graduating, I was like,"This is a non-traditional way of learning." But at the time, I thought, "well, I don't want to be too technical in my language on my website." That's where people you know, first, see you, I don't want to be too technical. So I don't want them to think that like this is too serious for their child. So I would say like this, we are incorporating learning music without notation. We do a lot of moving and chanting and singing. And we incorporate notation slowly, like later on in their piano lesson experience. And for the most part, parents are like,"Yeah, this is really cool, because when I took lessons growing up, I didn't, you know, do it very long, because I was really bad at reading or I thought it was boring." And I had a lot of parents comment."Yeah, this is way different than how I learned. This is really fun. This looks like it's really fun." And I was like, it is really fun. Their child is is playing the piano every lesson. We're not sitting there pointing out notes or counting numbers. We are like chanting, we are singing. They're playing sounds, exploring the piano, and they're creating every lesson. And I think that really lightens the child's day because they have ownership of what they're learning. And the parents that could see that were like, "oh, yeah, this is great." And of course, there are always parents who were good at piano growing up. And so their perspective is a little bit different than the ones that did not succeed at piano. So then they're wondering, "Well, why is my child doing this? Or doing that? Why aren't they reading it? I don't quite understand this method." And so I have lost some fantastic students, because of their parents not quite understanding, nor being willing to learn or ask me questions about Music Moves for Piano. And so that that has been kind of hard. But it's also been a learning experience for me because I don't want to be just unapologetic of how I teach. I also want to explain what I'm doing. And I will take time to do that, at recitals. But sometimes, I naively would think, well, I'll let the results speak for themselves, I'll show them through recitals or their lessons, or maybe at home practice that they practice at home, that they're just independently making music, and they're happy doing it without that extra need to read music super early. And for some parents that works, and for some parents, it doesn't. And that's fine. So what I've done since then, to make sure that everybody's on the same page of what's going on this year, I made parent training videos, to make them watch as they were going over my studio policy and handbook, that's kind of a requirement they do. And it's like an hour's worth of videos. I mean, it's a lot of information. And I tell them, they can listen to it at their own pace, because they are in different segments. As a parent, it can be overwhelming to look at the page and wonder what in the world their child is supposed to do. Because I know, looking at the lesson plan books, it's just a lot of words. And that's overwhelming for me too. So my goal as a teacher is to make Music Moves as accessible and parent friendly as possible. So my videos went over the lingo, because the lingo is different. And if they were to sit down and do an ECI page (an Exploration/Creativity/Improvisation page) with them, I want them to know what a child is supposed to do when they say "chant a four macrobeat Duple meter rhythm pattern," because there's a lot of words in there that they're probably like what? And sometimes they don't stay in the lesson. So I encourage them to stay in the lesson. But some of them still don't understand after a while. So they understand that, they understand my expectations when it comes to practice, which, if they don't practice, that's okay. If they do, it shouldn't be any longer than maybe 15 minutes tops, and if they finish something they can move on. Because I remember not liking practice as a kid. But that doesn't mean I hated piano lessons. It's just, it's a separate thing sometimes. And of course, parents are also hung up on that idea, too, that their child should be practicing to get the most out of lessons. And I agree, but it's just not as structured, as I think they think it is. It's more of like play the tune. Experiment with a little bit, change it up a little bit. All right, you're good. You did what you're supposed to do, and if you want to play more, you can If not, don't keep beating a dead horse and move on. So yeah, it's just changing their mindset and the culture. So they know what's going on. They understand the books, they understand what the lesson looks like, you understand my expectations, and what progress means to me as a teacher, and how that's different than perhaps what progress means in other studios. And so they're all on board with that. And they're like, Okay, this is great, this was super helpful, I really appreciate you taking the time to like, go over

Scarlette Kerr: 9:50

I think we've all experienced some growing it. And with these videos, it shows them that I am very mindful of their child's progress. And that I'm very mindful of that whatever stage they're at, they're learning and they're producing music in their own way. And that's okay. That pains when we first started teaching, audition-based piano there's no competition, or no, like set timeline for them. Because like Gordon says, every child has the opportunity and ability to make music just at different levels. And that's what I'm trying to, like very much emphasize with my parents. Like, it's okay, they can't do this right now. They're doing great where they're at. So that's just been my goal. And so, yeah, I think that's been really helpful. So far this year. No one's said anything or questioned anything. And then lessons. And I had some families too, that just didn't understand and it's gotten to the point where I have like, a long waiting list of families who are like, this looks like something I want to do for my children. Because I've also, since last year, have updated my website. I had like one tab that's like, what I was doing, or just thought it should be done What are my priorities as a teacher? And how do I get them there? And I kind of go through there with saying it's music learning theory, but with also like in a parent friendly way. So that's like a long winded way of saying I've just been more open and more talkative and more unapologetic about what I teach and how I teach and that I'm using Music Moves for Piano, and that it's based off research with Edwin Gordon's research, and that this is what we do, and this is how they get there. And they're like, Okay. another way, and I wasn't doing it that way. So therefore, it wasn't for them. And it hurt. But then it's also okay, because then you really build a studio of students and families that appreciate what you're doing that they might not fully understand what we're doing, but they appreciate it. And they love seeing the students creat at the recitals. And they fully support their child and their progress. So it gets to that point. But we've all experienced those those times. And I love what you're doing for the parents. That's amazing. I'm glad it's well received so far. Yeah. And I hope it continues to work. So and I can always change it. And there's going to always be growing pains. But I think it's just every year, I just streamline something that makes it easier for the parent and the child to grasp into practice. And so it's just setting up those systems to make it easy

Hannah: 12:33

I want to highlight two things that you said, because for them. you're saying so much it's so great. But I just really want to focus in on these two things to make sure the listeners really want to highlight two things. No, it's fabulous. You're full of ideas, I love it.

Scarlette Kerr: 12:47

Sorry, I talk a lot. Yeah, because I know there's parents, there are many The first thing was about educating at the recitals. If you do recitals, that is such the best time to educate different types of parents, and you have the ones that are very parents, especially when you've got students who are doing their own creative arrangements and things like that. And you can explain to the parents and to everyone what's going on. And hands off. Like they trust their child to kind of figure it out you've got everybody there together, feeling positive vibes, and you know, probably more open to the things that you can teach them in those moments. So I just want to make sure everybody really heard that one. And then the other thing is the videos. And what you said was really profound. I don't know if you know how profound this is. But the part about I was going to just sort of let the work speak for itself. But then you sort of like changed your mindset around that. And I completely relate to that. Because I used to be that kind of, it's a little bit of an ego thing. I think, when you're like, "oh, I'll just keep doing my thing. And the results will speak for themselves." And they will but it takes a really long for themselves, or the ones that are very hands on and want to time for the results to really speak for themselves. And you kind of need something to fill in that time before everything like do it with their child. And then there's one that's like in starts speaking for itself. And so to have this kind of like library of parent helpful videos, is great. I started doing the same thing this year, I finally accepted that they just need help, they need help and explanations at home. And I think that's great what you're doing. between where they want to be involved, but they're just super, super busy, that they just are kind of winging it as they go. And I respect all forms parenting. So I want to make sure that like for each type of parent that that resources on what they can grasp and take so that they can help their child in the best way they can at home. Or have you run into any other challenges along the way? You know, you talked about growing pains, did you have any other specific challenges that you faced in this process of adopting Music Moves? I think that growing pains is the when you are at a state or a stage when you have learned a lot and you've been incorporating that. The growing pains is when you learn something new. And you want to either be more efficient in your teaching or to add this new idea in your teaching. Because you get set in a system or like a schedule. I don't know what the word is.

Krista: 15:35

A routine.

Scarlette Kerr: 15:36

A routine. Thank you. You get set and the routine of how you teach something for maybe a year or so. And then you go to a PDLC, you realize, oh gosh, there's so much more I have to be doing. And so you have to kind of like restructure a little bit which there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's kind of a love change. as intimidating as it is. I think it's important that we're always on our toes because that makes us better teachers. It's just growing pains in resetting that routine with the child and not making it seem like you're overhauling a lot, because you're not, you're just adding something new. And so you want to make sure that you're not overwhelming yourself or your student too much. But that takes a couple of weeks or even months to kind of fill in that new routine. And by the time you're really good at that routine, you learn something new that you have to add in there. So I think it's just a constant process, but that's okay. I love what Janna Olson said, we are...what is it? Benevolent experimentation?

Hannah: 16:29

Benevolent experiments? Yeah.

Scarlette Kerr: 16:31

So are all of our teaching is literally benevolent experimentation. And my students know that. They know that I'm a little nuts when it comes to, like, trying new things. And they're like, Okay. So that'd be the only like, I think, challenge besides, parent education that I have currently in, can think of,

Krista: 16:54

And it doesn't stop, the learning doesn't stop and the new things don't stop. I've been teaching this for well over 15 years now. And this is the first year I'm doing a lot of overlapping lessons with mixed levels. So it's like, you get to a point and you're like, Okay, I'm ready to try this now. Like, I feel super confident to do this, or I feel really confident now to do sibling lessons or something else. But that just keeps it exciting. And I love that I keep learning new things and trying new things.

Scarlette Kerr: 17:24

Yeah. And just listening to you talk about overlapping levels just makes my brain go into...

Krista: 17:29

Oh, it made my brain like, when Marylin used to talk about it, I was like, I can never do that. Like, that's just too much for me. But now that I'm here, I'm like, Okay, I've been doing this for a while that I can. I could do this, you reach the point where you're like, Okay, I'm ready to jump in and it probably won't be perfect. Right? That's okay, we're gonna have a blast doing it. And we're gonna learn a lot,

Scarlette Kerr: 17:50

And I think yeah, and it's great, because everybody will hit those teachers differently. But your students are still benefiting from great teaching, no matter what stage you're in, or no matter what you where you think you are compared to where you think you should be. I still see the benefits of my early Music Moves students that are like, the ones where I was learning how to teach Music Moves. They're still doing their suit, they're doing great, they're doing fine. And then you always kind of fill in those gaps that you think exist later, even though actually, you're surprised those gaps weren't as prevalent as you thought they might be.

Hannah: 18:21

And I've said before, and I will say it again, fumbling around with Music Moves can be more beneficial sometimes than excellent teaching with another method.

Scarlette Kerr: 18:34

Right. Right. And I think just the chaos of it is just part of my personality anyways, of just being all over the place, like trying to take all these all these ideas or to put them together. And I think when I sit down and put it all together, that's where like the magic happens. And I have fun doing it. The students have fun doing it. And we're okay with the chaos that happens in the studio.

Krista: 18:55

Well, speaking of magic, what were some of your successes with Music Moves for Piano and how did you know it was kind of really working with your students?

Scarlette Kerr: 19:04

I think at my first studio recital. It was still the midst of COVID. So we did an outdoor recital in a park. And I decided to do a mashup recital. It was so much fun, because you got to see the personalities of the students come out and they're mashups. And I am at a point where I can kind of tell when they're audiating. While they're playing. It's really interesting, because they're more purposeful, it when they pause, you're you know that they're thinking about what to do next, which is fantastic. So everybody like from Keyboards Games up to like my Book One students. That's where I was like, my oldest student was at the time, to even some high school students that were not quite Music Moves, but still doing some of those elements. They all did mashups from a Keyboard Games, Keyboard Games, B, some from other songs they heard or learned outside of piano lessons, like on the radio or on Tik Tok and it was so fun to see them to go up and down the piano with such confidence. And with a pulse. And it was just naturally musical. I didn't have to teach them that... you know what I mean? They just kind of do it. And it's fantastic. And the parents saw what they were doing and they thought that was really fun. And I always say that if I make them do something, I have to do it too. So I did a mashup at the end, where I decided I was going to do something super silly and just do a mashup of songs that you hear on Tik Tok, which was like the new thing at the time. So I started out with the Moonlight Sonata because they're gonna think it was something super serious. And then all of a sudden I went into like All-Star and that one song by Enya that was popular and picked up at the time. And "I'm Blue" I think it's a song and and all the kids loved it because they hadn't recognized it before and they were like singing along and or moving along to it. And the parents thought it was super cute. So I think the biggest success I've seen is seeing kids be confident at the instrument. They're just very confident in what they're doing. They have an innate sense of pulse. I don't have to sit down and point notes to them during the performance, which is what something I did before MLT. Before MLT, I would sit down on their side, like, Alright, what's that note? You're doing. Great. What's that note? Oh my gosh, never again. They have a sense of flow when they're playing, which is phenomenal, when you watch a four year old have a sense of flow at the keyboard. It's something that you would think that's advanced, but it's not, it's innate, you just have to kind of bring it out of them. And then of course, like, the 14 year old is also moving with flow, or playing with flow when they're playing. Yeah, I just, I don't know, when I knew it was working. I have moments. I don't think there was one big moment. It was just a bunch of small moments of, ohh my gosh, they just play this on their own and without my help, and oh, my goodness, they just decided to create something on their own without my help. I just kind of guided them on what they can do. And that smile on their face at the end. And when they finish mashing up, is when I know that it's working. Or a moment where I would sing a tonal pattern, or we're learning one song, or one piece at the piano and they say, Oh, it sounds like this one. And they start playing it. I don't know. And that's how I know this is working. Or when we learn a rote piece. And after a couple of weeks of hearing it and moving to it, they just say I can play this, and they just play it. And I know it's working. There's just so many small things that just come together, if that makes sense, like a chain of reactions, that I know it's working,

Hannah: 22:50

It makes total sense. And I hear people who have been using Music Moves for a while and who have really got on board, not this kind of like cherry-picking or one foot in one foot out. But like the ones who've really gotten on board, they all have these stories. And probably some of the people who are cherry-picking or halfway and halfway out probably have a few of those successes too. But I think the thing that you reminded me of is music from the inside out rather than the outside in. And we are, we're just providing these experiences. And they it is innate, and you can bring it out of them. Because it is in there, you just have to do the things that bring it out of them which are to move and to sing and to chant, and to create, and to improvise, and all these wonderful things that we get to do every day.

Scarlette Kerr: 23:43

And it's easy to plan recitals with that in mind. Some recitals, there's repertoire involved, but for the little ones, I just had them do mashups. And that's perfectly fine. And they're just as pleased and parents are just as pleased with that because it's still good, it's still great and actually probably more complex than what a typical preparatory level rote piece would be, going note by note. They're playing all over the piano, they're playing in duple or triple,

Hannah: 24:18

Sometimes both.

Scarlette Kerr: 24:19

Sometimes both, seamlessly going between duple and triple, or they change like a duple song into triple, or they change like an inherently triple song to duple with no hang ups, which that's always like, impressed me too. I was like, Oh, they just played that in triple even though it was actually in duple because they're like that they're auditing triple from like a previous piece they're mashing up with. So I think there is a level of success to be found wherever they're at. And I just want to make sure that I make them feel successful as they're doing it. Because that's what makes them keep going. It's that little hit of dopamine that keeps you going when you feel successful at something, you want to continue. And Music Moves provides those opportunities every single lesson. And that's why it works.

Krista: 25:05

Absolutely.

Hannah: 25:06

So before we wrap this up, we got to get to Dr. Barbara Lister-Sink and the work that you did at Winston Salem. Can you talk about how you combined your studies with her and with Music Moves?

Scarlette Kerr: 25:20

Sure. So I'll have to do like a quick primer of what I learned at Salem college with Dr. Barbara Lister-Sink because I can't talk about without explaining it, without it being confusing. So essentially, a lot of my studies at Salem college with Dr. Lister-Sink revolved around injury preventive keyboard technique. And even more specifically, Dr. Lister-Sink's method of retraining pianists. It's essentially a sequence of how you would have a already trained pianist, like a professional pianist, who's experienced injury or tension or just feels like they're inhibited by their body at the piano and how to kind of guide them through steps to help them understand efficient biomechanics, so like efficient use of your body with the instrument. So when you start the method you're doing like a laid out exercise to tune into your body and to have and to kind of start to develop kinesthetic awareness of yourself at any state at any given moment. And then you're taught how the muscles of your arms, how they help your forearm move up and down. And then you're taught how to create sound with like one note at the piano at the most basic level. So we call that the basic stroke. So you're trying to use gravity to allow your forearm to come to the piano, and you form your arch onto your middle finger. So you're using gravity to let your arms come to the piano. And that is the most like, basic way to produce sound. Of course, you don't play piano that way. But it's just helping your body relearn what it's like to play without any tension. And then from there, you learn how to use those muscles to control the sound you make. So like how fast you lift, or how fast to lower your arm directly contributes to the sound you produce, and how that is incorporated into repertoire over time. So our studies really revolved around how to learn this. So we all learned and went through this ourselves, and how to teach this. And then eventually, we of course, had to give recital so then at the advacned levels, how does this apply to advanced levels of playing, which takes some time and some learning curves and jumps through some hoops to get there, but you eventually get there. And then in the process, you kind of learn how you yourself can play with essentially a sense of freedom and control and musicality. Without any bad habits or any tension in your body. If that makes sense. It's a very, like, basic primer of what the Lister-Sink method is. But once I graduated, I wanted to incorporate those elements of that sequencing of motor skill development in children because in children, you're not retraining them, you are essentially training them to develop good habits.

Unknown: 28:20

And so for me, it was a process of like, okay, well, what do I need to see from a child who is learning how to one, move when they're four years old, because they're still not there, they're still awkward stages of movement, right, and also how to help them be able to make music at the piano when their bodies are like an eighth the size of the piano. And the piano keys are way bigger, like a piano key could be maybe half their hand. So the idea of having one finger do a keys impossible without them having to like extend their healer fingers and do a lot of reaching which isn't good over a long period of time because it makes the forearm tired. So for me, it was kind of like taking the what I knew from Dr. Lister-Sink and breaking it down even further to help kids have a solid sequence of motor skill development while they are learning music. And Music Moves for Piano is beautiful for that, because Marilyn had that same aspect in mind too. She knew what she was doing with motor skill development when she developed Keyboard Games. So with Keyboard Games, you can really hone in on the and work on and develop gross motor skills of moving the forearm up and down without engaging the side of your arm, your deltoids like how they have those chicken wings, or it's like outwards while they're moving their whole arms, or squeezing their arms like this. I call it the T Rex pose, squeezing in words to play. It's kind of helping them realize that they can have their upper arms release and move their forearm from their elbow up and down to play "Woodpecker," or"The Apple and the Worm," and any piece your Keyboard Games A and B. So it's just for me knowing what I want to look over my students. And then incorporating playing on one finger on the middle finger and essentially playing on more than one finger in a healthy way. So that they feel successful when they had to play harder pieces. Because kids audiations, I think develops faster than kids motor skills development. And I think everybody would agree with that because it's easier to teach I think.And so I want them to make sure that they can play with their audiating regardless of where they're at physically. And so I just kind of take it to their level. And they can only play on one finger, lifting and lowering their forearm into the middle finger, or even with a little shape to help support that middle finger because kids fingers are a little bit more pliable, so they collapse into the keyboard. That's okay, they can play a little bird on one finger. And then when they're older when we come to the back to the review a little bird, maybe they're at a point where they can learn how to play with two different fingers and learn how to we can you know, use rotation with from the elbow or circumduction to get from one note to the other, and those are all biomechanical terms, but you have to like, kind of experience it to know. So it's it's just a long process, but it's possible. And it's so easy to incorporate because Music Moves is inherently intuitive of that process as well. So yeah, it's hard to explain it through audio, because I like I'm gonna show them what I'm doing, which I guess you can technically, because with Music Learning Academy, I've done a couple webinars on that.

Krista: 31:32

Yeah, so if you do if you're listening, and you do want to learn more, and you haven't seen Scarlette's webinars, then you definitely should. She has two. You can go to musiclearningacademy.com/webinars. And there you will find Technique in Young Beginners: Development of Motor Skills and Application to Keyboard Games, and also the Technique Checklist: Sequencing Tips to Monitor and Guide Student Technical Development.

Scarlette Kerr: 32:00

Yes, and it'll sound overwhelming at first. Because it probably is. But I think just knowing that exists that that concept exists, I think is important that it's just as important to develop motor skills in a sequential manner, rather than just throwing them to the deep end and expecting them to swim. And you break it down beautifully in these webinars. You really do. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Krista: 32:23

Absolutely.

Hannah: 32:25

Well before we go I just want to add that we also have other Music Moves teachers who are Barbara Lister-Sink devotees. And so I think that these the her approach, and the Music Moves, and the music learning sequence is very compatible. So if you have taken her course, and you are not teaching Music Moves for Piano, you might want to start looking into that. Scarlette, thank you so much for continuing this conversation on Dr. Barbara Lister-Sink and on Music Moves and the way that you've been able to sort of combine them and bring even more magic into your studio. I think we have even more to talk about. So let's have one more episode. Yeah.?

Scarlette Kerr: 33:09

All right. Let's do it.

Hannah: 33:10

All right. Thanks so much for listening, everyone. We'll be back with Scarlete Kerr next week. See you soon.